在澳大利亚 I need some advice regarding a property purchase. Property - semi-detached house Bedrooms - 2 Condition - average needs internal reno to modernise Street - one of the best in suburb Location - excellent Close to schools - yes Transport - 50m The pool at of an IP needs to be resurfaced (or so the pool doctor says), the cost was estimated to be $10K ($10,000), after recoverying from my impresssion of a cat coughing up a fur ball, it just seems far too much. Its just a standard poo
We've lived in our house for 24 years. It had a heritage overlay placed on it (by stealth) in 1999 ...despite the fact that most of it was built as a new sympathetic extension in 1992. Lulled into a sense of "trust us, it's all OK" by the letters from local council we didn't lodge an objection. BIG MISTAKE !! Now we want to do a tiny 20 sq.m extension and the procedure is, like, you wouldn't believe. It's now about 2.5 months since we heard "anything" from council planning dept. Phonecalls to our trusty councilor get responses like " I'll look into it, but you appreciate I can't get into the details ...". So, this post is a general warning. If somebody even mentions heritage ...run a freakin' mile. If you already own the property (as we did) don't trust anybody and OBJECT, OBJECT, OBJECT.
You have been warned !!!
What area are you in?
Just up the road ..actually !
Heritage can be stupid, my brother in law is licensee for a pub that is heritage listed and when they took over the amount of paperwork required for even simple renovations and repair work was ridiculous.
Not to mention that they did some work which did not require an application to be made. Heritage came in and stopped the workers because they were apparantly meant to lodge an application stating no application was required
the only thing heritage areas are good for is getting grants to restore derelict buildings and profit.
Mine is a common weatherboard house about 60 yrs old. 5 years ago the council started a heritage register and wanted to put mine on it. Fortunately it looks as if it was just something to keep a few guys busy for a while and has now been forgotten.
Just keep paying.
zepth said: ↑
Heritage can be stupid, my brother in law is licensee for a pub that is heritage listed and when they took over the amount of paperwork required for even simple renovations and repair work was ridiculous.Click to expand...When you "dig into it", only then do you realise how all pervasive is this "heritage" issue. But the "foxes are well and truly in charge of the henhouse" I can assure you. It seems the "controlling body" is ICOMOS (International Council of Monuments & Sites). ICOMOS has convinced "everybody" ( local, state & federal gov'ts) to "sign up" to their methods. In a nutshell this means the SAME methods & principles are used for (say) a huge national monument/site/building as for your little beaten up "weatherboard bungalow". (You know, the house where you paid the mortgage for 20 years, and you thought it was "yours" ???)
Guess who comprises the membership of ICOMOS? Heritage architects & the like. Guess who determines which/where/what is heritage? Guess who YOU now need to PAY to get you through the "red tape"...even for a 3.5 metre wide bathroom! They are now attempting to heritage list whole suburbs of "worthy architecture". ( Google "Strathmore heritage overlay".) Cause they are now creating their own income !! Not a bad lurk huh ?? ...and where do you, the homeowner stand ? Nowhere, not to be heard ! Just pay your mortage and pay your town planner and NOW pay your heritage architect. Oh..and also pay more rates to pay for the Council employees who administer all this. It's unbelievable !!
Object, object, object.
Sunfish said: ↑
Mine is a common weatherboard house about 60 yrs old. 5 years ago the council started a heritage register and wanted to put mine on it. Fortunately it looks as if it was just something to keep a few guys busy for a while and has now been forgotten.Click to expand...Sunfish, for your sake I truly hope so. In any case, if it comes up again, OBJECT, OBJECT, OBJECT. Oh, and fear not... it's keeping a LOT of guys busy in our community I can assure you. This issue is at ALL levels of gov't with wasteful overlaps at all levels. Just Google "heritage" and it will blow you away.
Would you save this ??
This link (hope it works) takes you to the ICOMOS Australia home page.
Now I ask you ...would you save that pile of scrap iron ???
uh oh .. I just took a look and it's not scrap iron anymore... it's a hunk of concrete ...so maybe they change the photos. Sorry .....
Your troubles remind me of the Raffles Hotel development here in Applecross near the Canning Bridge in Perth.
Abe Saffron had owned the site since the 50's or 60's.
In about 2002 I think, he decides to do a high-rise development to ;
(a) capture the uniqueness of the foreshore site
(b) allow others to enjoy the site as their home.
There was a hell of a hullabaloo in the local community, with the blue rinse set, old biddies who fondly remembered the good old days when they used to walk down to the Raff for a chardy and a good knees up with the local lads.
I remember at one stage there, a bunch of them got up and said "Abe, you are destroying our heritage".
He stood up and responded by saying, "Look ladies, I understand you have memories, but I owned the place when those memories were being formed, and the current building on the site doesn't pay it's way, is over 60 years old and costs too much to keep. Now, if you'd like to pay me what the property is worth, you can keep it just how you like it."
Of course, they didn't have two brass razoos to rub together.....but still wanted to dictate what the Owner did with the site. I simply do not understand that logic ??
In the end of course, after all the consternation, all the hand wringing, all the protests, the development went ahead and now it's a very nice place, and a real asset to the community. So much so, it looks like the East Perth development slated to start soon is a carbon copy of what Abe did.
Some people just LLLLUUUURRRRVVVVV to stick their nose in and have a squawk when they have no right to do so.
BTW - on our PPoR, we had one of those heritage return concrete verandah thingoes which the Council was scouting for as a "prime example" of the building efforts in the 30's and 40's. Yep, well that nonsense got the Don't come Monday with the concrete saw hard at work over 3 days. Vamoos !! Gone !!
Now it's a normal looking house and the squirrels who think they know better simply drive on by and leave me alone.
Not quite the same...
Actually my situation has a different twist. I'm an old house nutter. I love the detail. I love the leadlight windows, the high ceilings. I love the workmanship & skiils that are dying as we speak. Our house (Californian bungalow bought 1980s) didn't have a heritage overlay, so when we did our extension in 1992 we did it TOTALLY authentic in every detail. And I mean every detail. The house is on a corner so all is exposed. It was a major extension. By the time we'd finished, with 2nd hand roof tiles etc, you could not tell the old from the new. In 1999, along comes "Heritage Harriet" and spots this "rare, large, picturesque" Californian Bungalow & we get the heritage overlay news in the mail. Fast forward to now. I want to put a bathroom ( ensuite) on our bedroom. The wife & I aren't getting any younger, and we're planning for our "elder years". I want to build the same methodology as 1992, and faithfully copy the architecture and details, so it all blends in.
Now, here's the twist. Because it now has a heritage overlay, the extension has to be "clearly identifiable as a modern extension". Whaaat !!!! So, they applied the heritage overlay becuase we did such a good job in 1992, but now they want me to build a "modern" pile of crap on my lovely old house.
It just makes no sense at all !!!
Sounds like you need to tell them they have heritage listed a 1992 building then.
My old house was built in 1876 by the bloke whose name is on the streetsign out the front. The place is oozing history, there are photos of it in the museum, it is listed on the local heritage walk, and the best part is it used to be a funeral parlour - so it is a unique building. Inside it is not very authentic anymore since someone put in cement floors and slapped a bathroom inside in the 80s and I redid the entire interior from 2005-2009, but outside it is much the same, down to the graffiti carved into the stonework.
It isn't heritage listed and probably should be.
Dazz, I'm shocked. As soon as I saw Saffron's name I just knew he'd solve his problems with a fire, and you say he didn't? Bugger me!
the area in which our just sold reno is in, is an entire area with an overlay - not just individual houses. something like 6 blocks long x 10 blocks wide (not building blocks, i'm talking street blocks).
you can extend and alter etc in a sympathetic manner, but you cannot knock down. being inner city it does mean the streetscape is kept with the picket fences and return verandahs etc, but you can't even knock down a derelict building if it is deemed salvagable by the council
RumpledElf said: ↑
Sounds like you need to tell them they have heritage listed a 1992 building then.Click to expand...Done that "in spades". Waiting (now 2.5 months) for a response.
RumpledElf said: ↑
It isn't heritage listed and probably should be.Click to expand...Sounds like it. But "dont"...unless you want to lose control. There's NO upside, only complications and delays and frustrations and more plans and more costs etc etc.
Just pray you're not next....
lizzie said: ↑
the area in which our just sold reno is in, is an entire area with an overlay - not just individual houses. something like 6 blocks long x 10 blocks wide (not building blocks, i'm talking street blocks).Click to expand...This is happening in Melbourne also. It's wrong. The home-owner has no rights.
Google "Strathmore heritage overlay".
lizzie said: ↑
you can extend and alter etc in a sympathetic manner,Click to expand...hmmm.. I'd need to see the fine print. Anyhow, you will need the services of a "heritage architect" to get planning permit at HUGE expense.
lizzie said: ↑
you can't even knock down a derelict building if it is deemed salvagable by the councilClick to expand...Everybody wants to deem "for the good of the community" . But NOBODY want's to re-imburse the owner. Just pray it's not you next.
landlubber said: ↑
Sounds like it. But "dont"...unless you want to lose control. There's NO upside, only complications and delays and frustrations and more plans and more costs etc etc.Click to expand...Because it was so old and interesting I did check that it wasn't heritage listed - and believe me, I wouldn't have bought it if it was. I've heard horror stories myself.
Fortunately the house I'm in now is a cookie-cutter 1900 symmetrical worker's cottage in a (different) country council. In no way unique. The house in the next street was a 1880s birthing hut that was possibly the birthplace of RM Williams and is now a large patch of freshly bulldozed ground, so I don't think they're really heritage buffs in this council.
landlubber said: ↑
I'm an old house nutter. I love the detail. I love the leadlight windows, the high ceilings. I love the workmanship & skiils that are dying as we speak.Click to expand...I agree (I HATE the plain concrete modern rubbish slapped together today) which is precisely why I support buildings being heritage listed to protect them, as many developers will come and rip them all down otherwise.
Because it now has a heritage overlay, the extension has to be "clearly identifiable as a modern extension".Click to expand...This bit is INSANE! Why on earth would they want the extension to stand out as an ugly separate attachment?! So what if it blends in with the older building, that in my opinion would look far nicer, and I would have thought the rules would be that it does blend in. The rules should be that you are restricted in what you do to the current building, not what else you want to do to your own property! Absolutely madness, that's almost a story for ACA!
It can get worse ...
RumpledElf said: ↑
- and believe me, I wouldn't have bought it if it was. I've heard horror stories myself.Click to expand...http://mornington-peninsula-leader....ry/mornington-family-s-home-dream-demolished/
Oh it gets worse than that ! (Hope the link works!) This derelict house was NOT listed. The prospective purchasers enquired. BUT, BUT when they actually BOUGHT it and then applied to demolish, the council then REALLY checked and found the house had been occupied by ( wait for it) a local health officer! Just like that ! Cannot touch it.
How would you like that news after you had spent your money AND checked ?
Heritage is a moving target. It's arbitary.
Round our area, the last "review" was in 1999. That review "threw out" some properties that were previously listed just a few years earlier , and added others. So, in the space of a few years "heritage" had changed. How the hell do you keep track of that ?
Insane is an appropriate word..
Biggles said: ↑
This bit is INSANE! Why on earth would they want the extension to stand out as an ugly separate attachment?... Absolutely madness....Click to expand...Biggles, you're starting to sound like me. But even then it's NOT that easy. Here's the exact wording of what they reckon they want "new extensions ...should be subservient to the original heritage building and should clearly be identified as a modern extension without detracting from the original building".
Clear as mud huh? Google "Burra charter" . That's the "bible" for all this.
PS In one of my meetings with the heritage consultant, I said "At this rate what you want is a flat roof extension like from the 70's that everybody hates". He repied "We're starting to save some of them."